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Jon Davis
Advanced Member
Username: Jond
Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 173.60.6.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 10:12 am: | |
I began my lessons yesterday. My instructor said that the left hand on the cello strings should not be tilted- as is the right hand on the bow, but that the fingers should be perpendicular to the fingerboard. I have seen professional cellists play with a tilted left hand. So- here's sort of a poll. Tilted left hand or perpendicular left hand? |
Man
Senior Member
Username: Manwong
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 204.153.88.2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 12:38 pm: | |
I don't play the cello, but I think I understand where your teacher is probably coming from.
Basically, it's good to learn and understand the "rules" very well before you go about "breaking" them.  
I don't think a poll of who does what is as useful for this as understanding why people play as they do (and why your teacher wants you to learn this way -- at least at first).
Hope that was not too cryptic of me... 
_Man_
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".
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Jon Davis
Advanced Member
Username: Jond
Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 173.60.6.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 01:34 pm: | |
I just want to find if this is common, uncommon, or what percentage in between. Thanks. |
Joan
Senior Member
Username: Cellojoan
Post Number: 237
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 96.228.155.64
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 25, 2009 - 05:23 pm: | |
If you do a google search, you will find proponents of both and their reasons. My teacher prefers the square hand position. |
Larry Lee
Senior Member
Username: Larry
Post Number: 236
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 69.221.236.221
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 05:40 am: | |
I was in a masterclass given by a very accomplished cellist. He said that depending on the sequence of pitches being played by the first, second, third and fourth fingers, sometimes you keep your fingers square and other times they should be slanted (pointing in the direction of the bridge) to get good intonation.
Your teacher is probably having you start with playing a scale. That scale may work best with the square approach.
- Larry |
Jon Davis
Advanced Member
Username: Jond
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 173.60.6.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 08:23 am: | |
Ah. Well I saw that it is supposed to be way easier to kick the pointer finger up to hit your A# if your fingers are slanted, and it also feels a little bit more natural when using the pinky. Can you give me an example of the sequences where you would use straight vs. slanted fingers? |
Larry Lee
Senior Member
Username: Larry
Post Number: 237
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 69.221.239.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 04:57 am: | |
Jon, I may have misinterpreted what you said about your fingers being perpendicular to the finger board.
If you meant how should the tips of the fingers be positioned as they press the string against the finger board, the fingers should be curved, not flat. It would be as if you were playing a piano correctly. Some people who have not had lessons play the piano flat fingered, but that's not correct.
On the cello you should try to have the last joint of the fingers close to being perpendicular to the finger board. However, if you are reaching with the first finger or little finger with the rest of the hand staying in the original position the finger will have to flatten.
Also the very tip of the bone within the finger tip should be a little to the right of the string, not directly on the string.
When you said squared position, I was thinking of squared position as the direction of the whole hand and fingers being squarely pointed in the direction of the string.
If that is what you were asking, here's the sequence differences.
A sequence that lends itself to a more squared position in relation to the string -
Put your fingers on the A string. The first finger on B, the third finger on C sharp, the fourth finger on D.
A sequence that works better with the fingers slanted -
On the A string put your first finger on the C sharp, the second finger on D and the fourth finger on E.
Either of these sequences could be played squared or slanted, but it's easier as I mentioned above.
Before the time of Pablo Casals teachers had some strict rules of hand and arm positions that were uncomfortable and impractical. Casals broke with tradition and advised being flexible, using what works best for the situation.
Larry
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TK
Senior Member
Username: Lifeisgood
Post Number: 501
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.39.0.49
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 06:25 am: | |
I don't know if my (non-cellist) contribution will help or not but...my daughter's cello teacher always refers to the cellists left hand as 'walking' up and down the fingerboard. It has to be light and flexible with a spring in its step. If you watch good cellists on YouTube that is exactly what their hand looks like...it's walking, sometimes skipping, up and down the fingerboard.
He also used to remind her to keep the back of her hand facing away, facing forward, and not let her hand tilt back at the thumb. Think of it as holding a softball (they're large). You want that natural curve of your hand while playing. Be sure to not let your wrist drop down because then you will flatten the whole hand posture.
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Jon Davis
Advanced Member
Username: Jond
Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 173.60.6.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 08:39 am: | |
Ok I need to clarify. These are my two examples. Yes, I know there are a billion things wrong in both these pictures. This is an EXAMPLE. Treat it like what it is. Thanks
I hope this helps clarify what I was getting at. |
TK
Senior Member
Username: Lifeisgood
Post Number: 502
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.39.0.49
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 08:56 am: | |
Yep...top photo is correct position most of the time. Think of the softball hold, keep fingers rounded and don't let your wrist drop.
As your playing progresses, then you will 'naturally' have a somewhat slanted hand at times...but as a beginner, learning correct hand technique will provide you with a solid foundation from which you build.
This is why learning from a skilled player is so critical. Now go practice! |
Man
Senior Member
Username: Manwong
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 204.153.88.2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 10:59 am: | |
Beyond the details (and again, I'm no cellist), I agree w/ TK's main point there -- and it was my basic point earlier. Your teacher, if he/she is actually good, should be helping you build a good, solid foundation to advance from for the future.
If you *really* do not feel confident that's what he/she is doing, you should at least consult w/ him/her more thoroughly on the subject to find out why you're being taught this way. There's nothing wrong w/ asking questions (and looking for well reasoned answers). And doing so may also help you decide sooner rather than later whether this teacher is actually a good fit for you (beyond just the matter of the technique itself). Establishing a good rapport w/ the teacher is probably vital for your long term endeavor w/ the cello (not to mention developing a good, possibly life-long friendship too).
_Man_
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".
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Cellopop
Senior Member
Username: Curtis
Post Number: 3067
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.65
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 12:52 pm: | |
You're teacher is going to bust chops constantly and probably for a couple of years on proper hand position. If your teacher seems highly qualified, do not dispute him/her and practice. Hand position, arm position, instrument and THUMB are key to success in the beginning. It may frustrate the bejeezes out of you, but it really is so important. It leads to good intonation and really is important. Patience, Grasshoppah. |
Larry Lee
Senior Member
Username: Larry
Post Number: 238
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 69.221.239.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 02:31 pm: | |
Jon, your pictures help me to understand your question on square or slanted. You've had some good advice from others who have responded.
I only add that if you look at both pictures your middle two fingers are close together. This is natural for the hand of a non cellist. Right now to play a tones whole step apart with those fingers you will have to do some shifting back and forth a little to get the correct pitch.
Over time the muscles that spread those two fingers will get stronger and the ligaments will stretch. Then it will be easier to get the correct pitches without having to shift slightly.
- Larry |
TK
Senior Member
Username: Lifeisgood
Post Number: 503
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.39.0.49
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 09:13 pm: | |
Excellent observation, Larry.
Jon, his point is important. Playing a string instrument is not a natural use of the hand or fingers. The structure of the hand needs to be trained to move in sideways directions that are not natural. The third finger always wants to move with the pinky and it has to be 'taught' independence in order to play the cello/violin/viola. These things will be frustrating in the beginning until, with many hours of practice, your fingers start moving independently.
Remember those baby steps...
I'll add a tip for you. When I was first learning violin and was struggling to get my fingers to move correctly, I started doing an exercise where I would hold a pencil in my left hand as if it were the neck of the instrument and I would practice moving my fingers apart. It helped to strengthen and teach them to stretch apart. For you, a cellist, perhaps practice the same exercise only use your right forearm as your cello neck and place your left hand on your forearm and practice moving your fingers apart. The nice thing about this little study aid is you can do it anywhere and as many times during the day as you can think of it. |
Man
Senior Member
Username: Manwong
Post Number: 1289
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 204.153.88.2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 11:17 pm: | |
RE: the finger spacing issue, for me, I definitely have more trouble getting a good, well-tucked half step (on the violin) than spreading for full steps (or even step-and-a-half). I suspect you'll never have that same half-step issue (particularly between the 3rd and 4th fingers) on the cello as on the violin -- it certainly doesn't help that my 3rd finger is waaaay longer than my 4th. 
A moderate size viola probably works easier for me in this regard.
_Man_
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".
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TK
Senior Member
Username: Lifeisgood
Post Number: 504
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.39.0.49
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 11:54 pm: | |
The low first finger in first position is what kills me most of the time because I move my whole hand trying to reach it. 
I'm playing some in 2nd position now and there can be some challenging stretches shifting from 3rd to 2nd.
Some days you feel this 'hobby' will never get easier! |
Jon Davis
Advanced Member
Username: Jond
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 173.60.6.156
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:09 am: | |
That's supposed to be the good in the slanted fingers is all you gotta do is straighten out that pointer finger and it will extend back to hit the (A#).
"Some days you feel this 'hobby' will never get easier!"
I feel the same already. |
TK
Senior Member
Username: Lifeisgood
Post Number: 505
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 70.39.0.49
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 08:33 pm: | |
We have to be a little crazy to keep at it, Jon! But don't get discouraged. You will make progress. When the going gets tough, remind yourself that string instruments are the most difficult to learn to play. |
