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jeffrey wong
Advanced Member
Username: Jeffreywong
Post Number: 79
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 05:16 pm: | |
I ask. When we call somebody half way across the state or country, telling how much we can spend and if we like mellow, loud, new, old, German, Chinese, Romanian, etc., we usually agree to have one violin sent. Who has sent for say an Artist and a Soloist, or a Maestro and a KB? Are we going to believe the guy on the phone or our own ears? And what if they sound the same?
For that matter, has anyone had two of the same model sent? No two pieces of wood being alike, even within the same model, and coming off the same chunk of wood. Does that just apply to more expensive violins, whose finishers didn't lay on 2 mm of varnish?
What do we really know? |
Man
Senior Member
Username: Manwong
Post Number: 753
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 05:41 pm: | |
It probably depends a lot on what your budget is -- and the instruments in question.
As far as I can tell, most dealers would be willing to send you more than one violin at a time to choose between them as long as your budget is high enough though what's high enough may vary I guess. Also, would it really make sense for *YOU* to incur the extra shipping charges involved if you're only shopping for a lower end instrument?
_Man_
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".
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jeffrey wong
Advanced Member
Username: Jeffreywong
Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
Yes, one's budget can define the limits on shipping.
What defines "lower end?"
I suppose I'd pay $50 in shipping if I liked the $545.00 virtuoso well enough to send a $1500 MT2 back. If I discovered that the MT2 really was the sweetie, I hope I'd not miss the $.
1. It skirts the hassle of driving to a local Vln shop (LVS)
and having to deal with their haughty luthiers. One near me proclaimed that 80% of advice given on the Internet is crap. Such blanket statements don't earn respect.
2. What you spend on shipping you'll save on sales tax until your state gets aggressive about collecting.
3. I doubt that I'd order two 100 buck violins from Shar or SW strings. At that price, I'd expect very little, but one of two Artists might just sound so sweet as to make the extra $ worth it. Or maybe one might sound like a real dopey dog (not that I'd ever think Stringworks would ever send out a bad sounding violin) |
Cellopop
Senior Member
Username: Curtis
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 04:51 am: | |
I'd consider doing that with a violin, but cellos are waaay to expensive to ship.
I think anything beyond a "moving up" instrument shuld be purchased in the store unless you want to compare.
Most of us are beginning to advanced students brought to this forum because we purchased out very first instrument. So at that point, to answer Jeffrey's question of " what do we know?"....not much.
Personally, I didn't know where to start. What did I know about stringed instruments and where to purchase them? We learn aas we go aong. I think just renting then purchasing the Crescendo cello was a matter of lucking out. We trusted SW and got what we paid for. We're very happy with the MTII also. Once the trust of SW was established, we gave it another shot and were happy with the purchase. Lets face, as long as you have a quality instrument in your first couple of lesson books, is every little facet going to make that much of a difference? I takes years to draw out the tones that your bow and instrument is capable of producing. Laura's techer uses a junky (probably around Crescendo or Artist quality, however, the strings are unraveling and it looks pretty beat up)rental at her lessons so he doesn't have to shlepp(sic) his cello from Manhatan to LI everyday. Guess what? That junky cello sounds pretty darned good when he plays it.
So to go back to that thread "Instrument or Player"? it';s both. |
Joan Raymond
Senior Member
Username: Cellojoan
Post Number: 113
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 05, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
When I was ready for a "move up" instrument I tried every cello in my city (plus those shipped in to the symphony for sale) but for one reason or another, I didn't like any of them. I had found Stringworks web site during the previous year and was impressed by the comments (good or bad;mostly good) posted by customers. I decided to give Stringworks a try. I spoke with Erik, described my playing ability and goals and he suggested three cellos - Artist, MTII and Kalo Bartok. All three were in my price range so I asked to try out the top two. I really liked the MTII and bought it. My cello teacher didn't believe I would buy a cello "on the net" and without her help but I have been very satisfied. I doubt that I will ever need another cello. I currently use Evah Pirazzi strings and the sound is beautiful. I just spent a week at Cellospeak in VA and was asked numerous times if my cello was really old and expensive. Everyone was surprised to learn it is only a couple years old. One of the faculty coaches played it and was impressed by its tone and projection. I play in several small ensembles and our community orchestra.
To me, the extra cost to ship a couple of cellos was worth the expense. I had probably spent more in gas just driving around Sarasota looking at cellos. Erik Kramer was very thoughtful and knowledgeable in his suggestions to help me find the perfect cello for me. |
wireman24
Junior Member
Username: Wireman24
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 03:29 pm: | |
I have ordered more then one violin to try in the past. Here is a link to a review I wrote about five different violins I had tried at one time with several different bows. The review includes pictures as well.
http://www.stringworks.com/discussion/messages/4262/7980.html?1175307116
One of the violins I tried was a KB.
I suggest to anybody purchasing a new violin to try as many as you can side by side. It really opened my eyes and besides then you know for sure you picked the violin that is right for you I dont think going by other peoples opinions is the best way to go when buying an instrument. You really need to compare. It's for sure worth paying the extra shipping I will never regret doing a side by side test. |
Myles_H
Advanced Member
Username: Great_mazinga
Post Number: 78
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 09:17 am: | |
I did just that. I went to the Gliga Violin Shop last week while I was in California. I tried probably 15 or so of their top end instruments. Wireman is totally right. The difference between instruments was astounding side by side. Some of the more beautiful ones, ones that I might have chosen online, were not the ones I thought sounded best to me. None of the antiqued ones that caught my eye, caught my ear. Besides sound, I found I liked the feel of some over others as well. All were nice instruments, I'm not saying they were'nt. I had my favorite of the inventory shipped home to me. It's a calico stained varnish, in a unique Guarenius USA custom pattern. I also ordered a Michael Todd II and a Kallo Bartok from Stringworks, scheduled to arrive. I also ordered a couple from Shar in the same price range. Ultimately, I'll only keep one. It's worth it to pay the extra shipping for this much selection. Quite honestly, I'm rooting for the Michael Todd. I've had some kind of heartset on that model. Just based on the few talk ups on this forum, it sounds "nice". Still, I'm fully expecting an honest evaluation like I had at Gliga, where I ended up really liking the ones I wasn't expecting to. So who, knows, maybe the brighter Kallo will be my preference. I'm not expecting as much quality for the money from Shar, but I will give them a fair play as well. I'm so glad to have the chance to compare these nice instruments for more than just time in a shop. |
Man
Senior Member
Username: Manwong
Post Number: 784
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 02:06 pm: | |
Can't wait to hear your experience w/ the comparative trial, Myles. Please do let us know all the details. 
_Man_
Just another amateur learning to paint w/ "the light of the world".
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wireman24
Junior Member
Username: Wireman24
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 03:36 pm: | |
Myles
I dont know why you would not expect the quality from Shar? Their customer service and shop is great. Unlike Stringworks that sent me a violin with the wrong bridge. Also the finish work on the stringworks instrument I had was not very good either. I did not have any of these problems through Gliga or Shar.
Again here is my review.
http://www.stringworks.com/discussion/messages/4262/7980.html?1175307116
Also Shar gives you a 100 percent trade in value on their high end instruments. They also let you try more then one violin at a time and up to four bows at a time with their trial service. I think their great. They also send you written appraisals of your instrument for your insurance company. |
Todd M French
Board Administrator
Username: Toddmfrench
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 05:10 pm: | |
Wireman,
Please inform us about what a 'wrong bridge' that was sent to you, and let me know in person how our customer service was not to your liking, as I would like to address these issues immediately. If you could elaborate on the varnish issues as well, I would invite this review as well, since we take great pride in our work, and that of our workshops, and because we deal in much smaller quantities, I aim for our quality control to be second to none, and would hope our tradition of excellence speaks for itself.
Keep in mind that only a company who is willing to stand up to their instruments and is moderately confident in their quality of products and customer service would have an open forum, allowing anyone with any experience - good or bad - to post for all to see. I know that we can learn more from the negatives than the positives, always striving to be better in all ways. Fortunate for us, we have few reviews that are not glowing, but those that are not are learning opportunities for StringWorks.
You are free to email me directly at tmf at stringworks.com if you wish. |
wireman24
Junior Member
Username: Wireman24
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 12:27 am: | |
I actually took pictures of the varnish issues I seen. Below you will see the two major problems in the varnish that noticed. One was the hair and the other thing I noticed was a strange circular mark on the side of the violin. I am not sure what could have caused it but I was thinking maybe from some sort of clamp during production. Anyway you can see these two things in the pictures below. Also the flaming on the back of the violin was not matched very well at all you can see that as well in the picture below. In my post earlier I meant to say the tail piece not the bridge. I asked for a traditional ebony tail piece with one fine tuner and they sent me a wittner with four fine tuners. As far as customer service I thought that your staff would have been a little more concerned about these issues when I called back to return the violin. But it did not seem to bother them that I found these things and just gave me return instructions. I thought they would at least want to send me another that might be more to my liking but they never offered and at that point I did not even want to ask for another. I am sorry to sound so harsh but I was really expecting alot more out of the Bartok violin after all the good things that I have heard. I do applaud your open forum and letting people voice their opinions and I am sure the violin I tried must have been a fluke and this normally does not happen. But thats why I think people should try a bunch of different violins when shopping around.
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Administrator
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 07:25 am: | |
Wireman,
Can you send us your name via email address (unless you want to post it here) because your profile does not show a name, and our customer service department (Pat and Erik) are not familiar with this particular instrument or the problems you legitimately experienced with it, so we need a name to know who spoke to you and what the situation was. You can email the staff with the address sales at stringworks.com
This would help us get to the bottom of it, since normally we know of each situation even just by looking at the instrument, and one like this we should know easily but nobody can nail it down.
These are issues that should have been resolved, and our practice is always to resolve such issues, and apologize for any mistakes in the order, such as the tailpiece. If this was not done, we need to look into it further, but neither Pat nor Erik recall the situations you mentioned.
StringWorks Board Administrator
StringWorks Home Page:
http://www.stringworks.com
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Erik L. Kramer
Moderator
Username: Ekramer
Post Number: 112
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 08:26 am: | |
Wireman - Trying to recall exactly what was said during a conversation from 5 months ago is a bit difficult, though on rereading your original post from March 29th I do recall speaking with you when you called. If I failed to apologize for the above mentioned issues you had with the Bartok violin we sent you, I do so now, for what it may be worth to you at this point.
I do know that I did not offer to send another instrument due to the fact that I had no others to send, which I should have maybe made more clear at the time. The popularity of our Bartok violins is such that just about every time we get a new shipment every one of them is spoken for on arrival. A good problem to have in some respects, but it does make it more challenging for us in getting all of the backorders filled in a timely manner. I will say that my concern for things that are cosmetic tends to be less than if there were something structurally wrong, as most things cosmetic can be taken care of rather easily. That said, we obviously failed to address what appear to have been rather obvious issues during the set up stage, which is an oversight plain and simple. We do take great pains to make sure every instrument is thoroughly gone over before being put out for sale, but we are human and subject to a mistake or oversight every once in a while, as hard as we try not to. If the tone of the violin had been more to your liking, I would simply have suggested we call the instrument back, having our luthier fix those couple issues with the varnish and tailpiece, and return it to you. Unfortunately for us, first impressions are the ones that last, and we obviously failed you in that regard. I would like to thank you for your feedback, as we can learn from that and apply it toward making sure it doesn't happen again. |
Myles_H
Advanced Member
Username: Great_mazinga
Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 07:20 am: | |
I didn't mean to imply that I was expecting "junk" from Shar. Rather, they have more of a "big box" feel to me. Ergo, I was expecting more of a cookie cutter product, than a finely adjusted and toned instrument, at least for the sub $2000 price range I'm shopping. However, the instruments they sent me are nice and on preliminary play they also sound nice. I'm just not sure I'm hearing the "sound of a violin costing $3000 more." They also look suspiciously like Eastmans I've tried at a local shop. Shar's always been helpful on the phone, but I've felt a bit more rushed when I've talked to them compared to Stringworks.
The two Shar sent me are stringed with Visions which sound nice, but seem to be higher tension than I like. I'm having to press the strings a little harder than I like. Both are equivalent models, one is a Guarneri and the other a Strad pattern. The sounds are, as expecting, very different. The Guar is a nice deep tone, and the Strad is the closest in sound to the KB I'm trying. Both have glossier varnish than their catalog photos suggest.
The Gliga is nice, and I'm kind of pulling for it also, as I chose it from among many at their Pasadena store. However, it seems to lack a bit of power compared to some others, though it is one of the easier ones for me to play. The string height is perfect. Also, with it's thick custom body, I can comfortably play it without a shoulder rest. They claim it is personally created by the owners son, Cristian who signed the instrument. At this price point, I kind of doubt that. Perhaps he personally adjusts and set up the instrument or maybe even assembles them from premade shop parts, but I don't like the idea of someone over stating their production values. I suppose it's possible, but I don't have any way to ask him personally. You can't even get a good chinese personally made violin for that.
Lastly the stringworks instruments, they are a KB and a MTII. Both have been pleasant to play. Both also had some varnish issues on the back in the same places. They were about 2.5-3" long rubs about 1/2" wide right on the high part of the back. I suspect these were more an issue with truck vibration during shipping than product quality. I should probably have ordered them with cases, instead of instruments alone. I talked to Erik about this and he said they would be easy to make new again, should I decide to keep one.
I was a little surprised to see both instruments do not have as straight of grains as I seem to see on equivalently priced instruments, or in the catalog shots. This may be merely cosmetic, if the woods were chosen for tone primarily (which hopefully they were). On the KB, the grains kind of bend in toward the top of the spruce, and on the MTII there are a couple of oddly warped areas in the grains on the surface. I have to say, it doesn't seem to affect the tone, as both instruments have very long sustained tones when you pluck open strings. Since I like a natural look, this probably won't bother me, but I worry about future resale, as people like "standard" instruments.
The finish on both are nice. The MT is more Glossy than the KB. MT is a deep reddish stain, with yellowed edges, and very pretty. The KB has a more rough hewn look, as the tasteful antiquing brings out the texture of the wood nicely. The varnish on the KB seems a little thick around the purfling, especially on the back, like it might been allowed to pool there. It's not bad, though, and kind of lends to a more hand made look.
Both instruments do sound nice. I would have to agree that both instruments are of about the same quality but sound very different. Just as described, the MT is a more pleasant and sweet sounding instrument, very pleasant and well mannered to play. I'm surprised it doesn't get more attention on the boards. I find this particular MT a little more difficult to play than my current instrument, because it has a flatter finger board and bridge than I am used to. Ergo, I am occassionally grazing neighboring strings, where I don't normally do that. I think this is more of an issue of my playing level, and just not being used to this set up. But, I can't quite put it out of the running, because Erik's promised we can work anything like that out, and it sounds so sweet and warm.
The KB was more of a surprise than I expected. It has a very balanced sound, and not as high and bright as I was expecting. It is nice and deep on the G string, but doesn't overpower the others. The volume and power of the instrument is very open, probably more so than any others I am trying right now. I find it one of the more playable of the five I am trying right now. Like wireman, I was turned off by the Wittner tailpiece. It's an unfair bias. I just like things to look "natural". The wittner just looks plasticky. I know it is a fine composite with good acoustic properties though. I can hear it in the KB. I talked to Erik about it, because I wasn't expecting a wittner, and thought maybe this was a student's trade in instrument. He said all KB's are coming with this now, as they've found them to open the tone of the KB considerably. I wish they would have updated the web photo and description, as I would have a better immediate impression out of the box. I'll try to post some pictures of the ones I'm testing if I get a chance.
Tonight and tomorrow I'm going to go pick a couple from local shops to add to the selection. I want the local guys to have a shot, as I've tried to throw as much of my business there way as I can. I'm not expecting the value from the locals, as I've already tried a few instruments in store, and the money just doesn't seem to go as far there. |
Cellopop
Senior Member
Username: Curtis
Post Number: 1998
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 03:15 pm: | |
Myles.
That is a very detailed and informative review. Thank you for that.
I've heard but can't prove that Shar does indeed buy Chinese and Eastman instruments in the white and rename them. That's not necessarily bad. Its good if you like it I guess. It is deceptive though and that I don't pariticularly like.
Best of luck in choosing the one that suits you best. |
Nyjohn
Senior Member
Username: Nyjohn
Post Number: 507
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 09:13 am: | |
Myles,
I enjoyed reading your long and thoughtful post. I like your description of the Michael Todd II as being "well-mannered." The Kallo Bartok has been described on this board as having a NY accent, a slavic character, and has also been compared to a robust red. For the price I feel I got a whole lot of violin.
I practiced this morning. My Bartok has become sweeter. My Bartok is boisterous and demands to be played well - Scarlett O'Hara? - not sure why that image popped into my head! Funny the relationship that one develops with one's instrument. I remember from the documentary "The Art of the Violin" someone quoted as saying "we don't own our violin; we are merely custodians of it as it passes through time.." Isn't that deep? I wonder who will be playing my Bartok in a century and what will be its character?
I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on the instruments you are auditioning.
- NYJohn |
Myles_H
Advanced Member
Username: Great_mazinga
Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 07:27 am: | |
NyJohn, What do you mean by the comparison of a robust red? I don't quite get the reference. Do you mean a feisty red head, perhaps?
Something else about the Michael Todd, I was expecting a quieter instrument from some of the descriptions. However, I don't seem to get that impression, though. It has more power than I was expecting, and not anemic at all. The Bartok is more powerful though, at least under the ear. I'd love to have someone play for me and let me listen to them further back in a auditorium. I just don't have the time to put something like that together. |
Nyjohn
Senior Member
Username: Nyjohn
Post Number: 516
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:00 pm: | |
Hi Myles,
I meant a robust full-bodied red wine! (excellent with a good medium red steak - sorry vegetarians!)
- NYJohn |
Cellopop
Senior Member
Username: Curtis
Post Number: 2005
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
got corn?mushrooms and onions? baked potato with butter sour cream and chives/ big salad with blue cheese dressing?
or should we all just go to Peter Lugers? |
jeffrey wong
Advanced Member
Username: Jeffreywong
Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 04:47 pm: | |
I just ordered a $429 violin (Otto Ernst Fischer Model OF150) from Shar.
I may fall to the temptation to call Erik to have
a SW Artist ($450) sent to compare the two. Not
just to hear, but actually to purchase for play
at work. I can't bear to leave my MT2 there
and continued transport risks damage.
Hello, Erik, will you foot the shipping to my house in Washington state? |
Myles_H
Advanced Member
Username: Great_mazinga
Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 08:45 am: | |
It might be worth comparing. I really liked SW instruments I just tried, better than the two I tried from Shar. The Shar instruments were definitely nice, but I did like the SW sound a bit better on both models. |
jeffrey wong
Advanced Member
Username: Jeffreywong
Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 03:14 pm: | |
Myles,
What price range instruments did you trial?
I did call pat at sw, who will have an Artist on
its way soon. She said the quality has improved
since the review in Strings Mag 2002. I will
have two weeks to evaluate the two side by side.
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